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Tag: Sam Altman

  • OpenAI’s troubled GPT-5 rollout has exposed significant hurdles to maintaining its leadership position in the fiercely competitive AI market

    OpenAI’s troubled GPT-5 rollout has exposed significant hurdles to maintaining its leadership position in the fiercely competitive AI market

    OpenAI, the trailblazing artificial intelligence company behind ChatGPT, is facing significant turbulence with the recent rollout of its latest language model, GPT-5. Launched earlier this month to its 800 million ChatGPT users, the upgrade promised breakthroughs in coding, creativity, and conversational authenticity. However, a wave of user dissatisfaction, coupled with technical hiccups, has cast a shadow over the release, raising questions about OpenAI’s ability to maintain its dominance in the rapidly evolving AI market. CEO Sam Altman has acknowledged the “bumpy” launch, pledging to address user concerns, including improving the chatbot’s tone and restoring access to older models for paying customers.

    A High-Stakes Launch Falls Short

    When OpenAI unveiled GPT-5 on August 7, 2025, it heralded the model as a significant leap forward, boasting enhanced capabilities in coding, creative writing, and a reduction in what the company called “sycophancy”—the tendency of AI to overly agree with users. The rollout was intended to solidify OpenAI’s position as the leader in generative AI, especially as competitors like Anthropic, xAI, and Google’s DeepMind continue to gain ground with their own advanced models. Yet, the launch has been anything but smooth.

    Posts on X and other social media platforms reveal widespread user frustration, with many claiming that GPT-5’s performance falls short of the promised “PhD-level expertise.” Users have reported issues ranging from inconsistent responses to a colder, less engaging conversational tone compared to its predecessor, GPT-4o. “It feels like GPT-5 is trying too hard to be neutral and ended up robotic,” tweeted one user, echoing a sentiment shared across tech forums. In response to the backlash, OpenAI has doubled its rate limits to handle the influx of complaints and is actively addressing user feedback.

    Sam Altman, OpenAI’s CEO, admitted the launch’s shortcomings in a recent statement, calling it “a little more bumpy than expected.” He emphasized that while GPT-5 represents a step toward more advanced AI, true artificial general intelligence (AGI)—a system capable of continuous learning and human-like reasoning—remains elusive. “We’re not there yet,” Altman said, acknowledging that critical capabilities like adaptive learning are still missing. This candid admission has sparked debate about whether OpenAI overhyped GPT-5’s capabilities to maintain investor confidence and market share.

    Market Dynamics: A Crowded AI Landscape

    The AI market is more competitive than ever, with OpenAI facing mounting pressure from rivals. Anthropic’s Claude 3.5, xAI’s Grok 3, and Google’s Gemini have all made significant strides, offering users alternatives that prioritize different strengths, such as safety, conversational warmth, or specialized applications. Market analysts estimate that OpenAI’s valuation, which soared to $150 billion in 2024, could face scrutiny if user dissatisfaction persists. Posts on X suggest that some investors view the GPT-5 rollout as a test of OpenAI’s ability to deliver on its ambitious promises amid this crowded field.

    According to a recent report from VentureBeat, OpenAI’s decision to roll out GPT-5 to all 800 million ChatGPT users simultaneously may have contributed to the launch’s challenges. Unlike previous phased rollouts, the company opted for a universal release to maximize impact, but this approach strained its infrastructure and left little room for iterative improvements based on early feedback. The move has drawn comparisons to software launches in the tech industry, where premature scaling often leads to user dissatisfaction.

    The broader AI market is projected to grow to $1.8 trillion by 2030, driven by demand for generative AI in industries like healthcare, finance, and education. OpenAI’s early dominance, fueled by ChatGPT’s viral success in 2022, gave it a first-mover advantage. However, competitors are closing the gap. Anthropic, founded by former OpenAI researchers, has gained traction with its focus on safe and interpretable AI systems. Meanwhile, xAI’s Grok 3, available on platforms like x.com and mobile apps, offers users a free tier with robust capabilities, posing a direct challenge to OpenAI’s subscription-based model.

    Addressing User Concerns: Tone and Access to Older Models

    One of the most vocal criticisms of GPT-5 centers on its conversational tone, which some users describe as “cold” or “detached” compared to GPT-4o. In response, Altman has promised to refine the model’s tone to make interactions feel more natural and engaging. “We’ve heard the feedback loud and clear,” he said in a recent interview. “We’re working on updates to make GPT-5 feel more human and less like a machine reciting facts.” This acknowledgment reflects OpenAI’s attempt to balance technical precision with user expectations for warmth and relatability in AI interactions.

    Additionally, OpenAI has taken the unusual step of restoring access to older models like GPT-4o for paying customers, a move that has sparked mixed reactions. While some users welcome the option to revert to a model they found more reliable, others see it as an admission of GPT-5’s shortcomings. “Why push a new model if you’re already bringing back the old one?” tweeted one user, reflecting a sentiment that OpenAI may have rushed the rollout. The decision to offer older models is limited to premium subscribers, which has raised concerns about accessibility for free-tier users who make up the majority of ChatGPT’s user base.

    Financial and Strategic Implications

    The rocky rollout has financial implications for OpenAI, which relies heavily on its subscription-based ChatGPT Plus and enterprise offerings. While the company does not disclose specific revenue figures, analysts estimate that ChatGPT Plus, priced at $20 per month, generates hundreds of millions in annual revenue. The decision to allow paying customers to access older models could help retain subscribers frustrated with GPT-5, but it also risks undermining confidence in the new model.

    Strategically, OpenAI is navigating a delicate balance between innovation and user satisfaction. The company’s API service, which powers integrations for developers and businesses, remains a key growth driver. However, any perception of instability in its flagship models could deter enterprise clients who prioritize reliability. To address this, OpenAI has pledged to release regular updates to GPT-5, with a focus on improving performance and addressing user feedback. For developers interested in leveraging GPT-5, OpenAI has directed them to its API documentation at https://x.ai/api, signaling a commitment to supporting enterprise use cases despite the consumer-facing challenges.

    Looking Ahead: Can OpenAI Regain Momentum?

    The GPT-5 rollout serves as a critical test for OpenAI as it seeks to maintain its position as the undisputed leader in generative AI. While the company’s early successes with ChatGPT set a high bar, the current backlash underscores the challenges of scaling AI systems to meet diverse user expectations. Posts on X suggest that some users are already exploring alternatives like xAI’s Grok 3, which offers a free tier with competitive features and a conversational style that some find more engaging.

    Industry experts remain cautiously optimistic about OpenAI’s ability to recover. “This isn’t the first time a major tech company has faced a bumpy product launch,” said Dr. Emily Chen, an AI researcher at Stanford University. “OpenAI has the talent and resources to iterate quickly, but they need to prioritize transparency and user trust to avoid losing ground to competitors.” Chen’s comments reflect a broader sentiment that OpenAI’s long-term success hinges on its ability to address user concerns while continuing to push the boundaries of AI innovation.

    For now, OpenAI is doubling down on its commitment to improvement. Altman’s acknowledgment of the rollout’s challenges, combined with promises of tonal refinements and access to older models, signals a willingness to adapt. Whether these efforts will be enough to restore user confidence and fend off competitors remains to be seen. As the AI race intensifies, OpenAI’s next moves will be closely watched by users, investors, and industry observers alike.

  • OpenAI has officially launched GPT-5, its most advanced model to date, following a two-year development period

    OpenAI has officially launched GPT-5, its most advanced model to date, following a two-year development period

    OpenAI on Thursday announced GPT-5, its latest and most advanced large-scale artificial intelligence model.

    The company is making GPT-5 available to everyone, including its free users. OpenAI said the model is smarter, faster and “a lot more useful,” particularly across domains like writing, coding and health care.

    “I tried going back to GPT-4, and it was quite miserable,” OpenAI CEO Sam Altman said in a briefing with reporters.

    Since launching its AI chatbot ChatGPT in 2022, OpenAI has rocketed into the mainstream. The company said it expects to hit 700 million weekly active users on ChatGPT this week, and it is in talks with investors about a potential stock sale at a valuation of roughly $500 billion, as CNBC News previously reported.

    OpenAI said GPT-5′s hallucination rate is lower, which means the model fabricates answers less frequently. The company said it also carried out extensive safety evaluations while developing GPT-5, including 5,000 hours of testing. 

    Instead of outright refusing to answer users’ questions if they are potentially risky, GPT-5 will use “safe completions,” OpenAI said. This means the model will give high-level responses within safety constraints that can’t be used to cause harm. 

    “GPT-5 has been trained to recognize when a task can’t be finished, avoid speculation and can explain limitations more clearly, which reduces unsupported claims compared to prior models,” said Michelle Pokrass, a post-training lead at OpenAI.

    During the briefing, OpenAI demonstrated how GPT-5 can be used for “vibe coding,” which is a term for when users generate software with AI based on a simple written prompt. 

    The company asked GPT-5 to create a web app that could help an English speaker learn French. The app had to have an engaging theme and include activities like flash cards and quizzes as well as a way to track daily progress. OpenAI submitted the same prompt into two GPT-5 windows, and it generated two different apps within seconds. 

    The apps had “some rough edges,” an OpenAI lead said, but users can make additional tweaks to the AI-generated software, like changing the background or adding additional tabs, as they see fit.

    GPT-5 is rolling out to OpenAI’s Free, Plus, Pro and Team users on Thursday. This launch will be the first time that Free users have access to a reasoning model, which is a type of model that “thinks,” or carries out an internal chain of thought, before responding. If Free users hit their usage cap, they’ll have access to GPT-5 mini.

    OpenAI’s Plus users have higher usage limits, and Pro users have unlimited access to GPT-5 as well as access to GPT-5 Pro. ChatGPT Edu and ChatGPT Enterprise users will get access to GPT-5 roughly a week from Thursday.

    “It’s hard to believe it’s only been two and a half years since @sama joined us in Redmond to show the world GPT-4 for the first time in Bing, and it’s incredible to see how far we’ve come since that moment,” Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella wrote in a Thursday X post, referring to OpenAI CEO Sam Altman’s appearance at Microsoft headquarters in Washington in February 2023.

    The new model is coming to Microsoft products Thursday, according to a company blog post. Microsoft 365 Copilot is getting GPT-5, as well as the Copilot for consumers and the Azure AI Foundry that developers can use to incorporate AI models into third-party applications.

    , a company that helps enterprises manage their computer files, has been testing GPT-5 across a wide variety of data sets in recent weeks.  

    Aaron Levie, the CEO of Box, said previous AI models have failed many of the company’s most advanced tests because they struggle to make sense of complex math or logic within long documents. But Levie said GPT-5 is a “complete breakthrough.” 

    “The model is able to retain way more of the information that it’s looking at, and then use a much higher level of reasoning and logic capabilities to be able to make decisions,” Levie told CNBC in an interview. 

    OpenAI is releasing three different versions of the model for developers through its application programming interface, or API. Those versions, gpt-5, gpt-5-mini and gpt-5-nano, are designed for different cost and latency needs. 

    Earlier this week, OpenAI released two open-weight language models for the first time since it rolled out GPT-2 in 2019. Those models were built to serve as lower-cost options that developers, researchers and companies can easily run and customize.

    But with GPT-5, OpenAI also has a broader consumer audience in mind. The company said interacting with the model feels natural and “more human.” 

    Altman said GPT-5 is like having a team of Ph.D.-level experts on hand at any time. 

    “People are limited by ideas, but not really the ability to execute, in many new ways,” he said. 

  • Steve Jobs Once Described Designer Jony Ive as His ‘Spiritual Partner’ at Apple — Now OpenAI Has Acquired Ive’s Tech Startup for $6.4 Billion

    Steve Jobs Once Described Designer Jony Ive as His ‘Spiritual Partner’ at Apple — Now OpenAI Has Acquired Ive’s Tech Startup for $6.4 Billion

    OpenAI CEO Sam Altman called Jony Ive “the greatest designer in the world” on Wednesday after announcing his company’s plan to buy Ive’s artificial intelligence device startup io, in a deal worth $6.4 billion.

    The deal signals OpenAI’s intention to build consumer devices, likely meant to get more people using its AI services regularly. Altman and Ive have stayed mum on the specific products they’re planning to roll out, and when, but their partnership shows that OpenAI is taking a big swing: Steve Jobs once described Ive as his “spiritual partner at Apple” and a “wickedly intelligent person in all ways,” according to Walter Isaacson’s 2011 biography of the Apple co-founder.

    Ive, 58, served as Apple’s chief design officer until 2019 and spent nearly three decades designing some of the tech giant’s most iconic pieces of hardware, from the iMac and MacBook to the iPhone, iPod and iPad. Born in London, he joined Apple in 1992, five years before Jobs returned as CEO to the company he co-founded.

    Jobs quickly found a kindred spirit in Ive, later telling Isaacson that the pair typically conceived most of Apple’s new products together, before pulling in other collaborators: ”[Ive] understands business concepts, marketing concepts … He gets the big picture as well as the most infinitesimal details about each product.”

    When Jobs died in 2011, Ive delivered his eulogy, calling his former boss his “closest and most loyal friend.”

    Ive’s first collaboration with Jobs came on the colorful line of iMac personal computers released in 1998, for which the designer created striking features like a translucent plastic case and a handle on the back of the computer. Later, Ive’s focus shifted toward making products like the iPod and iPhone sleek, stylish and easy to use.

    Ive also led the design of the Apple Watch and Apple’s AirPod earbuds. “The difference that Jony has made, not only at Apple but in the world, is huge,” Jobs told Isaacson.

    When Ive left Apple in 2019 to launch his own independent design firm, LoveFrom, analysts at Deutsche Bank told CNBC News that the tech company was losing “one of [its] most important people.”

    What could Ive design for OpenAI?

    Altman is tasking Ive with trying to capture some of Apple’s magic, writing in a statement that Ive “will assume deep design and creative responsibilities across OpenAI and io.” The pair first agreed to work together on building a piece of AI-powered hardware two years ago, The New York Times reported in September.

    It’s unclear exactly what types of products will result from the partnership. Their vision is for “a product that uses AI to create a computing experience that is less socially disruptive than the iPhone,” the Times wrote. They also want to “help wean users from screens,” and are wary of tech wearables like smart glasses, The Wall Street Journal reported on Wednesday.

    Altman was an investor in startup Humane’s AI pin, a small, voice-controlled device users could wear on their lapel and use for phone calls, texts and search queries. The product was released in 2023 to a poor reception, and discontinued before the company began winding down operations in February.

    Ive and Altman could be working on something similar to the AI pin, but slightly larger and worn around users’ necks, Apple analyst Ming-Chi Kuo wrote on social media platform X on Thursday. The product, which would connect with smartphones but have no display — not unlike AirPods, in that way — could begin production in 2027, Kuo predicted.

    In the past, Ive has said that he relishes the opportunity to design new types of devices that don’t already exist in the world.

    “I love working within such a relatively new product category. The opportunities are remarkable as you can be working on just one product that can instantly shatter an entire history of product types and implicated systems,” Ive told the British Council’s Design Museum in a 2005 interview. He pointed to the iPod as an example of a product that “clearly [turned] our users’ previous experience and understanding of storing and listening to music upside down.”

  • OpenAI Appoints Instacart Chief Executive to Oversee Business and Operational Functions

    OpenAI Appoints Instacart Chief Executive to Oversee Business and Operational Functions

    OpenAI said late Wednesday that it hired Fidji Simo, the chief executive of Instacart, to take on a new role running the artificial intelligence company’s business and operations teams.

    In a blog post, Sam Altman, OpenAI’s chief executive, said he would remain in charge as the head of the company. But Ms. Simo’s appointment as chief executive of applications would free him up to focus on other parts of the organization, including research, computing and safety systems, he said.

    “We have become a global product company serving hundreds of millions of users worldwide and growing very quickly,” Mr. Altman said in the blog post. He added that OpenAI had also become an “infrastructure company” that delivered artificial intelligence tools at scale.

    “Each of these is a massive effort that could be its own large company,” he wrote. “Bringing on exceptional leaders is a key part of doing that well.”

    Ms. Simo, a member of OpenAI’s board, will oversee sales, marketing and finance. She will report to Mr. Altman.

    OpenAI, which ignited a frenzy over A.I. with its ChatGPT chatbot, has grown rapidly and juggled multiple initiatives — sometimes unsuccessfully. The San Francisco company has steadily released new A.I. models and products, including systems that can “reason.” In March, it completed a $40 billion fund-raising deal, led by the Japanese conglomerate SoftBank, that valued it at $300 billion and made it one of the most valuable private companies in the world.

    But OpenAI, which was set up as a nonprofit, has struggled to adopt a new corporate structure. As the commercial appeal of artificial intelligence has grown, the company had tried to remove itself from control by the nonprofit. That attracted scrutiny from critics such as Elon Musk, an OpenAI founder who sued the company and accused it of putting profit ahead of A.I. safety. The attorneys general of California and Delaware also scrutinized the restructuring.

    On Monday, OpenAI backtracked on the plan and said it would allow the nonprofit to retain its grip on the company.

    (The New York Times has sued OpenAI and its partner, Microsoft, accusing them of copyright infringement regarding news content related to A.I. systems. OpenAI and Microsoft have denied those claims.)

    In a statement late Wednesday, Ms. Simo said that OpenAI “has the potential of accelerating human potential at a pace never seen before and I am deeply committed to shaping these applications toward the public good.”

    She added in a memo to Instacart employees that she had a “passion for A.I. and in particular for the potential it has to cure diseases” and that “the ability to lead such an important part of our collective future was a hard opportunity to pass up.”

    Ms. Simo will remain at Instacart for the next few months as the company names a successor, a role she said would be filled by a member of Instacart’s management team. She will also remain on the company’s board as its chairperson.

    “Today’s announcement is not a reflection of any changes in our business or operations,” Instacart said in a statement.

  • Sam Altman’s decision to scrap OpenAI’s for-profit plan can be seen as a win for Elon Musk

    Sam Altman’s decision to scrap OpenAI’s for-profit plan can be seen as a win for Elon Musk

    SAN FRANCISCO — ChatGPT maker OpenAI will remain under the control of its founding nonprofit board after abandoning a plan to split off its commercial operations as a for-profit company.

    Former employees and Elon Musk, a co-founder of OpenAI who later split with its leaders, had criticized the restructuring plan, saying it would remove crucial oversight of its artificial intelligence technology. Musk filed a lawsuit seeking to block the move; the suit is ongoing.

    OpenAI’s new plan seeks a compromise between allegations it was set toabandon its original mission of benefiting humanity and the claims of company leaders that it must raise more money and deliver profits to investors to compete in the race to advance AI.

    It is unclear how the change will alter OpenAI’s operations, but it offers a fillip to Musk, who has waged a public war against the company that he co-founded but now competes against with his AI venture xAI. In addition to his lawsuit, the billionaire has publicly criticized OpenAI CEO Sam Altman.

    Musk’s lead attorney in the lawsuit, Marc Toberoff, in a statement late Monday dismissed the new plan as “sleight of hand” that “changes nothing.” “OpenAI’s announcement is a transparent dodge that fails to address the core issues: charitable assets have been and still will be transferred for the benefit of private persons,” he said, including Altman and OpenAI investors, such as Microsoft.

    OpenAI’s nonprofit board, pledged to ensure that supersmart AI benefits all of humanity, will now retain ultimate control of its operations. But the company will remove limitations it placed on the maximum returns investors could receive from investing in its for-profit arm. That division, which develops ChatGPT, will become a public benefit corporation, allowing it to seek profits while serving a particular mission.

    In a call with reporters Monday, Altman said that once completed, the new plan will let the company receive the full $30 billion investment recently announced by Japanese conglomerate SoftBank. The deal valued OpenAI at $300 billion, making it one of the most valuable private companies in history, but had terms linked to changes in OpenAI’s structure.

    Being able to grow and raise more money will enable OpenAI to deliver on its mission of ensuring that AI benefits all of humanity, Altman said. “We are obsessed with our mission,” he said. “We believe the structure works for that.”

    Altman said in a letter to employees provided to reporters Monday that the previous restructuring plan was abandoned “after hearing from civic leaders and having discussions with the offices of the Attorneys General of California and Delaware.”

    OpenAI is still talking to the attorneys general of the two states, which have to sign off on changes to nonprofit companies. The company is incorporated in Delaware but has most of its operations in California.

    In response to a question from The Washington Post, a spokesperson for California Attorney General Rob Bonta said the state’s department of justice was reviewing the new plan. “This remains an ongoing matter — and we are in continued conversations with OpenAI,” the spokesperson said.

    Jill Horwitz, an expert in nonprofit law and a professor at Northwestern University, said state officials would be expected to have a role in OpenAI’s restructuring. “It makes sense that the board would have thought through such a major change to the nonprofit structure in conversation with the regulators,” she said.

    It is unclear whether the nonprofit board’s oversight of OpenAI’s operations will remain unchanged, Horwitz said. “Without more detail, however, it’s difficult to know what control means,” she said.

    Monday’s announcement was the latest abrupt change at a company that since its founding in 2015 has grown to huge influence but has also been roiled by internal drama.

    OpenAI was founded by tech luminaries including Altman and Musk to counterbalance tech corporations such as Google as they developed more powerful AI software. The nonprofit’s leaders soon realized they needed more resources to compete with the tech giants, but disagreed about how to secure them.

    Musk initially bankrolled OpenAI but split from the company after his suggestion that he take full control was rejected by Altman and others.

    Altman began taking on huge investment from Microsoft to keep up with the costs of AI development, and oversaw the launch of ChatGPT. But he was briefly ousted by OpenAI’s nonprofit board in 2023, an episode that contributed to company leaders deciding that it needed a more conventional structure.

    OpenAI reconstituted its board and promised investors more stability, but over the past year several senior leaders and other employees quit the company, including its chief scientist and chief technology officer. Some departing employees accused the company of skimping on testsand other work needed to prevent OpenAI’s technology causing harm.

    Former OpenAI employee Page Hedley, who helped organize a letter calling on the company to remain under nonprofit control, said on Monday that he welcomes its change of plans, but still has questions.

    “Will OpenAI’s commercial goals continue to be legally subordinate to its charitable mission, which is enforceable by the attorneys general? Who will own the technology that OpenAI develops?” Hedley said in an emailed statement.

  • OpenAI has filed a lawsuit against Elon Musk, saying he’s not acting in good faith.

    OpenAI has filed a lawsuit against Elon Musk, saying he’s not acting in good faith.

    OpenAI is suing Elon Musk over claims he has tried “nonstop” to slow down its business for his own benefit.

    The company accuses the Tesla boss of using “bad-faith tactics” against OpenAI to help him control cutting-edge AI technology.

    Mr Musk sued OpenAI chief executive Sam Altman last year in a bid to stop him from changing its corporate structure. He co-founded OpenAI with Mr Altman but left several years ago. 

    The countersuit opens up a new front in the high-stakes – and long-running – battle between two Silicon Valley heavyweights, who both say they are acting in the best interests of OpenAI and the public.

    “Elon’s nonstop actions against us are just bad-faith tactics to slow down OpenAI and seize control of the leading AI innovations for his personal benefit,” OpenAI said in a statement on Wednesday. “Today, we countersued to stop him.”

    Last week, a federal judge in Oakland, California, set a March 2026 trial date in Mr Musk’s suit in a bid to fast-track the legal fight.

    US District Judge Yvonne Gonzalez Rogers previously declined to grant Mr Musk an injunction that would temporarily halt OpenAI’s conversion from a non-profit to a for-profit company.

    She also said that she expected Mr Musk to give evidence in the case.

    Mr Musk alleges that OpenAI strayed from its founding mission as a non-profit to develop AI for the benefit of humanity and is therefore in breach of contract.

    He left the company in 2018.

    “This is about control. This is about revenue. It’s basically about one person saying, ‘I want control of that start-up’,” said Ari Lightman, professor of digital media and marketing at Carnegie Mellon University.

    Lightman said it has been a distraction from making AI safe and equitable.

    “That takes a backseat with all this rigmarole over control and monetization,” Lightman said.

    OpenAI claims Mr Musk has “been spreading false information about us,” in a X post on Wednesday, adding “Elon’s never been about the mission. He’s always been about his own agenda.”

    Musk’s xAI is a competitor to OpenAI, but has so far lagged behind. Last month, xAI acquired Musk’s social media platform X – formerly Twitter.

    Mr Musk claims the combined company, XAI Holdings, is valued at more than $100 billion.

    In February, Mr Musk made an unsolicited bid for OpenAI, offering to buy it for $97.4 billion, which Mr Altman rejected by posting: “no thank you but we will buy twitter for $9.74 billion if you want.”

    In a statement to the BBC, Mr Musk’s lawyer Marc Toberoff said: “Had OpenAI’s Board genuinely considered the bid, as they were obligated to do, they would have seen just how serious it was.”

    “It’s apparent they prefer to negotiate with themselves on both sides of the table than engage in a bona fide transaction in the best interests of the charity and the public,” Mr Toberoff added.